Curse

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 01:33 PM // 13:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

Point 2. If you made a new "OMIGAWD ITS REALLY TOUGH!!!!" difficulty level, that depends on all human groups then you are going to exclude a lot of people who actually enjoy/have no option other than playing H/H.

A mode that requires cooperation, teamwork, communication and players. That is good. If that did happen, it would encourage grouping and cooperating, and hopefully divert gimmicks such as Tank 'N' Spank. Also remvoving the ability to use PvE skills, giving them decent AI and skill bars and basic use of those skill bars so people will actually be required to use their brains and not some bar that allows you to buttonmash. Even if it is in terms of PuGs, it would be alot better than what we have.

trankle · Aug 04, 2008, 01:38 PM // 13:38

All HM areas should have a 25% chance of spawning a team of "Corrupted Doppelgangers". This team would be consistent with the monster levels in the area, but in every other way would be identical to the player party. This would include wielding the same equipment, runes, and skills (including PvE skills). If the party had minion skills equipped, the enemy party would spawn with a full load of minions upon entering the team's radar range. The enemy team would have a full radar range aggro radius, and would not give up aggro until they were defeated.

This would keep teams on their toes, and force every player to understand the strengths and weaknesses of their team build.

And, of course, Ursanway vs Ursanway would be pretty funny.

Esan · Aug 04, 2008, 01:46 PM // 13:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I don't have GWAMM yet and I oppose to this quote. Challenge is good, and right now PvE is stale, easy and just not a challenge at all.

You have the luxury of being in the SMS alliance with some of the most skilled PvE players in the game. Very few people are in the same boat.

Most people, for various reasons, do HM by themselves or with one or two friends. Not to toot my own horn too much, but I know from personal experience that one can get leg. vanquisher and almost leg. guardian using H/H and without any EotN stuff or gimmick builds, and that one can get leg. master of the north with H/H without Ursan. Therefore, I don't idly say that HM is at the right level of difficulty already. Any harder and frustrating areas such as Joko's Domain and Vloxen Excavations go out of the reach of mere mortals, forcing people into active guilds (a harder and harder process) or ridiculous gimmick builds like the 600 monk, the imbagon, or the Signet of Removal necro. I believe that general HM should be completable by (skilled) loners.

Kashrlyyk · Aug 04, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by StormDragonZ

I don't want to make any changes to PvE. It's fine the way it is.

If you want to make changes for challenge, add more meaningless quests to gain experience, gold and random consumables under the Master Difficulty Quest name.

That´s the way to go and/or adjust HM.

Monkey Slayer · Aug 04, 2008, 01:55 PM // 13:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I agree. However, the AI sure could use an improvement. Give them dual classes, hard res'es, formations and tactics, EFFECTIVE skill bars, target priorities... I'm no programmer, I'll admit it. But isn't it possible?

We didn't -need- the bridge but Anet, IMO, thought we did. The monsters are OPed... so they've given in and let us be as OP'ed as them imagining we'd be happy.

Which reminds me of the post I just made in the other thread. Just badly implemented stuff from ANet.

My suggestions:

- Nerf Ursan.
- Better AI from foes AND heroes - tactics, target priority, build usage.
- Effective skill bars on foes AND henchies.
- Access to all classes.

Have to STRONGLY agree with you on this. If they take away Ursan, we should be fine. But as an added perk, make the AI better for enemies. All of your suggestions would make the game fun. Almost like a new game completely. You would actually have to imply strategy. At the moment with Ursan, the most strategy I've ever seen in a group was "Block the Door".
As for hero AI. It seems as though the henchies and heroes have a vague idea of targeting the healers. But this may have just been on a rare occasion. The heroes and henchmen won't move from the target unless you order them to. I wish they would understand that if they were in the AoE range of, oh say Savannah Heat, that they should move. Maelstrom seems to be a prime example.
Onto your third point. Depending on where you go, the skill bars may or may not be decent enough to pose as a challenge. Henchmen need a skill bar change A.S.A.P.
And in EotN, some of the enemies have access to a secondary. The charr come to mind.
Not disproving your suggestions at all, just commenting on them.

/endrant

Avarre · Aug 04, 2008, 01:59 PM // 13:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You have the luxury of being in the SMS alliance with some of the most skilled PvE players in the game. Very few people are in the same boat.

Wait, what?

As one of the earliest members of SMS, I protest this. What SMS shows is not the capability of good players in PvE, but the ability of the mediocre to follow the leader. A very small minority in the roster in the last year or so (I'd say maybe.. 2 or 3 non-guildhopping members) have been what I would consider skilled, the rest just pay attention and follow targets. The game isn't hard.

As always, it must again be brought up that the game should be balanced towards the maximum ability of the player. If good players can do something, and bad players cannot, it is the responsibility of the bad players to solve themselves, not the game itself to change. Players that are 'skilled' got there because they accepted this and did something about it, rather than feeling entitled.

Example: Zerg is not imba because you can't block 9-pool.

Anything that makes players play together (in a team game, goodness me!) rather than treating GW as a giant single-player game is healthy for it overall.

Esan · Aug 04, 2008, 02:05 PM // 14:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

As always, it must again be brought up that the game should be balanced towards the maximum ability of the player. If good players can do something, and bad players cannot, it is the responsibility of the bad players to solve themselves, not the game itself to change.

I agree. I have opposed the introduction of Ursan and consumables from the outset, and would dance on their grave. However, let us be clear that my point is about making HM harder by tweaking the AI, as some here are suggesting. Nothing else.

upier · Aug 04, 2008, 02:08 PM // 14:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

A mode that requires cooperation, teamwork, communication and players. That is good. If that did happen, it would encourage grouping and cooperating, and hopefully divert gimmicks such as Tank 'N' Spank. Also remvoving the ability to use PvE skills, giving them decent AI and skill bars and basic use of those skill bars so people will actually be required to use their brains and not some bar that allows you to buttonmash. Even if it is in terms of PuGs, it would be alot better than what we have.

I think that's called PvP.

romeus petrus · Aug 04, 2008, 02:14 PM // 14:14

just a small example from recent memory:

I remember when DoA first came out how everyone was complaining about how "impossible" it was, and that was on NM. Then people discovered the trinity build and everyone moved to whining about how certain professions were not allowed in DoA PUGS, and complained about how Tormented weapons were out of reach for most "casual" players.

And now that everyone and their dog have been to DoA people are complaing about how easy it is, and QQing about the price of armbraces crashing..

Anet just cannot win..

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 02:15 PM // 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esan

You have the luxury of being in the SMS alliance with some of the most skilled PvE players in the game. Very few people are in the same boat.

SMS is practically dead and TAM have started their own alliance. Almost anything can be done with practice. Also, playing as a team in general helps.

Quote:

Most people, for various reasons, do HM by themselves or with one or two friends. Not to toot my own horn too much, but I know from personal experience that one can get leg. vanquisher and almost leg. guardian using H/H and without any EotN stuff or gimmick builds, and that one can get leg. master of the north with H/H without Ursan.

I've vanquished most through H/H. The guild and alliance people aren't always there when I need them and to be honest with you, vanquishing is just dull because you don't have to put effort in to win.

Quote:

Therefore, I don't idly say that HM is at the right level of difficulty already. Any harder and frustrating areas such as Joko's Domain and Vloxen Excavations go out of the reach of mere mortals, forcing people into active guilds (a harder and harder process) or ridiculous gimmick builds like the 600 monk, the imbagon, or the Signet of Removal necro. I believe that general HM should be completable by (skilled) loners.

It already is, though. In PvE, all I do is just put Barrage on my bar and spam 1 now. Even putting effort in I find vanquishing boring now, because there is no challenge either way and it's always the same predictable AI.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upier

I think that's called PvP.

Not everyone is into competetivity, even if this game was build generally for PvP. All of those things, believe it or not apply to both PvE and PvP. Maybe except competetivity, but there are some things that people do compete in such as fastest clear times etc.

Avarre · Aug 04, 2008, 02:21 PM // 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I think that's called PvP.

No, PvP is 'player versus player'. I believe the term you are looking for is 'PvE'.

The fact you equate intelligent PvE in any way to being PvP goes a long way to prove how pathetic PvE is, or at least the playerbase expectations of it.

Robbert Monga · Aug 04, 2008, 02:23 PM // 14:23

Some nice ideas on first page... I'd like to add to that:

1) HM is already beaten, dead, burried and forgotten. If anything these changes should be coming as new mode... shall we call it Elite Mode? With new set of corresponding titles, etc, etc...

2) Monsters spawns should be random. There should be no "4 Tengu patrol that goes around this rock" stuff, other than those that are act as a trigger in mission/quest.

kostolomac · Aug 04, 2008, 02:26 PM // 14:26

The best thing A.net can do is tame the OP crap (UB , imbagons , SY! DS spammers etc.) so that the new players must adapt or die (figure of speech ofc.).
Making the game tougher for those who already know everything about pve would only please a small crowd.

Quote:

Not everyone is into competetivity, even if this game was build generally for PvP.

The greatest challenge comes from competitivity.

upier · Aug 04, 2008, 02:42 PM // 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Not everyone is into competetivity, even if this game was build generally for PvP. All of those things, believe it or not apply to both PvE and PvP. Maybe except competetivity, but there are some things that people do compete in such as fastest clear times etc.

Yeah, let's put a "should" in there somewhere.
Right after OR NOT and before APPLY.

And it's because of that "should" that we're getting GW2.
There's just too many things that went wrong with this game to fix it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

No, PvP is 'player versus player'. I believe the term you are looking for is 'PvE'.

Nope.
Nothing about the Environment fits T's description.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The fact you equate intelligent PvE in any way to being PvP goes a long way to prove how pathetic PvE is, or at least the playerbase expectations of it.

It's GW.
I am surprised that not everyone does.

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 02:49 PM // 14:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Yeah, let's put a "should" in there somewhere.
Right after OR NOT and before APPLY.

And it's because of that "should" that we're getting GW2.
There's just too many things that went wrong with this game to fix it.

They don't?

Teamplay applies in all situations of the game except solo farming.
Without players, this game wouldn't exist.
Coordination and communication are key to making your team as strong as it can get.

Quote:

Nope.
Nothing about the Environment fits T's description.

Nor is "players". Player versus Player implies there are other players you are against.

gremlin · Aug 04, 2008, 03:21 PM // 15:21

A simple "quick fix" if you like would be to base the power of the creatures on the level of the highest level player.
I realise its not realistic but would go a little way to making it more challenging.

I would prefer to see some of the already suggested options where mobs have more skills and dual classes.

The intelligent creatures out there could well use the builds players use if they are good eough for the heroes then its good enough for them.

Repetetive use of skill sets in areas would lead to the creatures there learning to defend against those builds.

Intelligent behaviour, when a mob reaches a certain casualty rate they should run for it scatter if need be and alert other mobs to come to their aid.

I would have thought the spotters the Kournan troops use in Nightfall would run at the start of the fight and bring reinforcements.
If you don't take them out be prepared to be swarmed later on.

Bryant Again · Aug 04, 2008, 03:32 PM // 15:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kusandaa

I agree. However, the AI sure could use an improvement. Give them dual classes, hard res'es, formations and tactics, EFFECTIVE skill bars, target priorities... I'm no programmer, I'll admit it. But isn't it possible?

We didn't -need- the bridge but Anet, IMO, thought we did. The monsters are OPed... so they've given in and let us be as OP'ed as them imagining we'd be happy.

We've already gone against plenty of balanced (and decently intelligent) AI several times in the later releases, but you'd be surprised how many don't realize it. The Kournan mobs are nicely put together, with Monks who kite and Rangers who put up stances at the right time, but even then they were simply steamrolled.

This isn't to say then providing better AI or better builds won't help (hell, any touch up at all is good), I'm only saying that sometimes the most straightforward tasks can be the most difficult. Want a good example? Try Doom on Nightmare >: )

unienaule · Aug 04, 2008, 03:35 PM // 15:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Wait, what?

As one of the earliest members of SMS, I protest this. What SMS shows is not the capability of good players in PvE, but the ability of the mediocre to follow the leader.

I have to agree with avarre, it always makes me rofl when people talk about how good SMS is. Now on to the fun part.

Quote:

Originally Posted by More Stuff from Avarrrrrrrrre

As always, it must again be brought up that the game should be balanced towards the worst player. If good players can do something, and bad players cannot, it is the responsibility of the bad players to whine on the forum until something is done. Players that are 'skilled' got there because they haxed, and not because they came up with builds that worked.

Anything that makes players play together rather than treating GW as a giant single-player game is THE END OF THE WORLD, HOW DARE YOU TELL ME I SHOULD GET HELP WITH HARD AREAS.

That pretty much sums it up.

zamial · Aug 04, 2008, 05:05 PM // 17:05

I like the question from the OP but almost everything after that is a waste of breath.

To make Pve More "Fun" I would:

1. Nerf the crap out of ursan.(yes, its comming)
2. Make consumables only able to be used in normal mode.(hard mode should be hard!)
3. Add in multi campaign quests.(good marketing by a-net)
4. I love the idea of the random dopple ganger party in hard mode from above post.
5. Add in a few random patrols, groups that do not walk a set path but just roam the zone.
6. Rework loot scaleing, If a mop drops 15 gold for a solo player that # would be multiplied by each person in the party. Same for items.(This would only take into account the players that are elligible for drops, to prevent abuse)
7. Since I have seen no real benifit from fast casting in pve, I would allow the mesmer class to cast while moving. (I seldom play my mesmer)
8. Allow player vs. player polymock to be initiated by anyone anywhere with the addition of all/most minipets into polymock pieces.(work like a special invite, must be accepted)
9. Add in the other "realms of the gods" with addion of new mats and armor.
10. Rework ToPK along with useless elites.(this area needs some serious love)

The last thing I would do is limit the special weekends to 1 pve and 1 pvp per month. If every weekend is special, none are. I believe the community is growing weary of the same old, reheated events.

While some people may not agree with me or these ideas, This is what I would change. I do also realize there is but 1 programer for gw1 but I think it is possible.

Tyla · Aug 04, 2008, 06:12 PM // 18:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zamiel

7. Since I have seen no real benifit from fast casting in pve, I would allow the mesmer class to cast while moving. (I seldom play my mesmer)

The moment I read this I imagined some Mesmer casting while kiting and accidently walking into a wall.